Time: November 21, 2009; Location: Beijing; Organizer: Social and Economic Research Knowledge transfer
Moderator: Yu Guo W; Panelists: JIANG Hong, Wu Junliang, Lee Wai-kwong, Cen Division
Moderator: First of all to you introduce our guests today Forum:
JIANG Hong teacher, the CPPCC National Committee member and Shanghai University of Finance and Public Economics and Management Professor; served 10 years in Shanghai People's Congress, the long-term studies in public finance, at the 2009 report on fiscal transparency in China important advocate for the voice.
Mr. Wu Junliang, the famous observation of the public budget volunteers, founder of China's net budget, the Chinese first learned of the civil government actors in the draft budget, the Guangzhou Municipal Bureau of Finance announced a major government departments, civil society promotion budget persons.
they are reputable, responsible people, but they are all for that matter from afar With the spirit of volunteerism. We give them a round of applause.
who sat next to me is this book, Several friends and important guests. This book has got all the hands, and I, as editor of the book, talk about why we do this book, what are the contents of this book, and we hope that through this book to what purpose.
knowing this book is the Institute passed a topic below, starting from 2007, has been done for three years. Why do we do such a task? pass knowing positioning itself to do transformation of the social system. from a traditional society like China into a constitutional state transition process, we believe that tax is a very central part. because the tax on the one hand is related to the vital interests of each person, each person pockets the money ; the other hand, involves the relationship between citizens and government, from the historical evolution, the tax may be similar to protection money under the imperial society such thing as a gradual transition to modern society, which the government provides public services to the community such remuneration mm a concept. We initiated this book which is: tax is the Government's public services the public one of the rewards of giving. From this perspective, the tax in modern society there should be a non-mandatory, by all citizens determine its scope of collection and use of the Services. China's current situation is unsatisfactory, for example, when China's transfer tax is often a government notification, a command, you can put the tax be laid down. if we take for granted, and we that is very normal.
right from the taxpayer is concerned, we can not determine the tax levy and its adjustment, which is a very important aspect. In addition, the taxpayer's right to know, in China, the implementation of very enough. This is why we put the right man this year, the tax theme of many distribution channels, are easy to find details of the government budget. But in our country very difficult. why we invited Mr. Wu Junliang? he got last year, the Shenzhen city government budget, which is a new milestone in the history of China's every action; this year in their promotion, the Guangzhou Municipal Bureau of Finance has announced a budget of 114 government departments, which are very difficult and great.
, but we all know, is now done in one of these cities , to the province, the Ministry of Finance level, these are not. we do this year when the project is also made application for information disclosure. We give the Ministry of Finance made a request to publish the State's budget. Ministry of Finance very polite, and now the government officials also increased the quality will give you a call, and get back to you. but in the end the results back to you is that you apply the information a state secret, so not provided. From that perspective China out of our current situation of the taxpayer's right to know the missing. We know there is a citizen of Henan apply for a public budget, the final investigation based on suspicion of espionage, was unbelievable.
One purpose of our book universal tax knowledge and common sense, many of its conceptual framework is the same as last year, but the data, the case is updated. We do this for the record books in China is fighting for the rights of taxpayers in the course of efforts, including inside the case cited the many reports on Mr. Wu Junliang, also quoted Professor Jiang Hong what they do on transparency in government financial results.
have invited a few guests this great honor, they could have been inside our books said the brave, responsible citizens actors, came to the scene of our great support this book. In addition, I also want to be frank, because of time and manpower, level of restrictions, our book There are many deficiencies and shortcomings, so I hope you experts in the financial aspects of the tax over to us on this issue more in-depth analysis, give us suggestions for improvement. also hope to have so many friends to attend today's meeting, you can Further importance of this issue to remind the whole of society. taxation is a core part of social transformation, and the first step is to focus public revenue. tax and budget information is not public, other improvements such as taxation, the taxpayer's rights, etc., question. With an open, first found the problem; with the problem, to attract more researchers, citizens of all walks of life, academics, media attention to his friends together, study it, and suggestions for improvement, and then bit by bit to promote the our national tax and social transformation in progress on.
Finally, I would like to quote the words of the preamble of the book to express my desire: our goal is through the universal principles and common sense tax, increase public awareness of rights, increase the The book is called : First, I thank the Cen Branch and the Institute for Knowledge and Communication invited me to come to Beijing to attend the meeting. I think this topic makes sense. Every day we place the money in the relationship and the government, some people do not know. I do not know that with a node is very important, if you know you and economic relations occurs when a person, you are each other's requirements, views, interpretation is not the same. Cen Branch This book is telling you that you are a very important place and the government money relationship. Whether you like it or not, we buy a packet of salt, a cup of tea, smoking a cigarette, eat a meal, are entrusted to a part of their wealth to the government. If this concept deeply rooted in China, then China Many political behavior, social behavior, including individual behavior, are very significant changes occur. countries will therefore be more healthy, more harmonious community will result.
I study political science. Many years ago, I from the financial and political theory recognize that, from the perspective of the government to spend the political and social development is very important. the last century, the late 90s, I found that China's reform has been no major improvement in the. a lot of people mention of political reform, But the revolution going? is not that we can achieve real results? do not know. At that time, and even then a little earlier, when I found the central government public budget reform, tax separately, I think that the Chinese seem to touch a little ways . From this view point to China's administrative reform and improve government efficiency, the most effective use of public resources, etc., are a great help. from that time, I started to pay attention to how China's budget reform began. < br> As with most reform, budget reform is also put forward by the central government from top to bottom. about ten years, from the concept put forward to the The establishment of libraries, etc., and gradually opened. If money do not do account, like a family, money to spend, you have to call your wife tell you clearly how to spend this money, she can not tell, it is necessary do account for easy housekeeper. in 05,06 years time, I learned some limited information on which government departments in the preparation of the budget is basically technically complete, and equal with books. my curiosity is even greater , would like to see the books. but do not see the books at that time, you're going to apply to see, maybe there are information, but the key information or not. I can not find a government department in the budget .06 mm I have a platform to engage the Chinese budget network, originally intended to take me to receive information on the budget hang out, so that like me who are interested can go take a look. my design is that, at the central level, various ministries, each province for the district, such as your Shandong Linyi, Shandong Linyi you understand the situation, but may I do not understand something, Futian District, Shenzhen, each of us which finds fault in their own sites, the purposes of communication.
08 happened in a major event on Open Government Information in the May 1 implementation. see this Bill , I think we can play by the rules of the. We do a lot of preparation, we make a line graph .08, we applied a dozen in the central sector, also applied for the thirty provinces and districts of a few places level of the budget information public. Many departments have refused to you, there are six reasons summarized, one of which is mentioned only Cenke Gang state secrets or national secrets. answered in this way we have more than one third, almost 50%. but this year the ratio is declining, so that the country is still in progress. is confidential, said this year only about 10%. Most of you find some other excuses, or 忽悠 you.
the answer is secret situation, how do we do? We go to the second letter, the content, we believe that under the ordinance, which is not a state secret. If you think it is a state secret, you have to produce a recognized state secrets related documents, grant process, Secret Service, etc. for your approval. this time, he does not get out of things to come, when the second answer will change your wording, saying we were going to apply the higher authorities, or we are ready to hh or you application for the department budget, he gives you a budget report to the like to shift responsibility onto others.
down we did last year is still pretty hard, but there will still be effective. Shenzhen City, showed us the departmental budget. Shenzhen 104 City departments, the Civil Administration, Department of Cultural Affairs, Development and Reform Commission, the city government offices such as these, a total of 104 department gave us, and they spent more than fifty thousand last year, 169 million, relatively speaking, one should be very clear the account. He is willing to show you the books, this is a very big step forward.
last year, inland Henan Jiaozuo has done just fine, including the Ministry of Civil Affairs, Ministry of Health, also provides us with considerable complete data. This year we did the same one application, Guangzhou City, put his government sector budget hanging in the Internet, not only we can see, everyone can see. At the same time, Shanghai is also using the state secrets reason to reject our application. media reported this matter later, Shanghai has been a lot of pressure, they do a lot of adjustments. First of all, in the October 29 a press conference to clarify this matter at higher levels, that they are ready to improve; In the Nov. 5 to make a program, is prepared to gradually open the Shanghai government budget. He did not then it is classified as state secrets category. see that Shanghai is also on the bright side of reform.
my original idea China's government information public sector budget should be three to five years after implementation of the Ordinance can see, it now appears, this is expected to be able to achieve.
Moderator: Mr. Wu Junliang would like to apply for three to five years the budget may have to be open successful second year results Sudden Impact, but also for this kind of success we are very happy. Here is JIANG Hong teacher. Chiang teacher not the same channel with us, you through the CPPCC and academic institutions, have a better way to care budget, share with you your experience and observation.
JIANG Hong: I am concerned about the government budget with my profession, I was taught in school finance. I can not just talk about abstract theory, you and students and, to to describe the financial situation, but if based on available information, this description is often stuck in a very vague level. you how to spend money for education, infrastructure how to spend the money in the end, do not know. you research a topic, first of all to have the data, often at this time, I feel a bit like a beggar teachers, to government departments around him, or go through some acquaintance of data, so the lectures difficult, it is difficult to research. This is my concern about the Government The initial motivation for the budget.
Later, when I was elected 97 years, Shanghai People's Congress, review the budget every year, this time the deputies who spontaneously look at me, they said Professor Jiang is an expert in this area . but I can not tell you more than words, because my message is so small. So I asked, you told me to comment, first of all make money from Shanghai, where the financial years, where used to , had told me. a lot of information did not. So, when to vote on the budget when I was in a state of inner conflicts. say to you as stated above, the following hands are lifted up, and I do not move in the end give hand? not allow you to hide yourself in that way, because he called three times in favor please raise their hands, not in favor please raise their hands, abstain please raise their hands. Inside the hall, meeting 860 deputies, to handle lone lifted to make up their minds. this decade, I feel an improvement, which in the first six or seven years, probably abstain against one or two people that is. Later reforms, is by voting machine, and abstention and opposition people increased noticeably. I have the impression the last time there was more than 800 100 persons abstained. I think the abstention or opposition is justified. the time is unknown, how can you easily stand? This is a large large sums of money are hard earned public money to the Government to manage.
Moderator: When did you start the courage to give an abstention vote?
JIANG Hong: I'm from when deputies to such a position in the first year. my heart, I now can tell the students inside the classroom that we should be how, if one formal occasion, you Su Zhetou neck, this is not like a teacher. Since I went to that environment, how should I say to that, and those who do not want me when I do not fit or feel, I do not when. If you give me such a birthright, honorable deputies, I have to perform their duties.
this I feel the process is a progressive community. I am still the second People's Congress. They also let me participate in a panel similar to the temporary Financial and Economic Committee (Financial and Economic Committee at that time has not yet produced), about a dozen people. you know when the National People's Congress vote, first specialized agency of the Standing Committee have a view, and then read the opinion to the deputies, and deputies to vote again. So the attitude of this group is very important. I remember a leader said to me : Jiang on behalf of, you see if you can budget for this principle in favor of doing that? I said I felt I could not agree in principle. in that meeting, I still vote in the abstention.
Moderator: Leadership requirements You agree in principle, why do you agree that in principle it can do?
JIANG Hong: I have several reasons: First, people give you money, you do not have all out, you just take one part of out for everyone to see. I've always said that we submitted to the Government the public pocket, he released three pockets: general government funds, that is, funds functioning administrative institutions; there is a pocket on the social security fund, this is the other pocket; third pocket that he spent a lot of public money for operating the investment, this is public money. you can only put one out of pocket part of the light. In other words, the general government funds which he showed the only part of the budget, budget does not light it. This is my first reason.
second reason you gave me the information is vague. If you want to see you do not know, the first approach is to cover up a part of. The second way is to make it fuzzy, covered with a piece of plastic sheeting, then covered with a piece of frosted glass, and then covered with a piece of glass flowers, you can not see. This is the performance in practice, he general of the budget data, which is equal to the observation of the things covered with plastic sheeting, ground glass, I said, the data you do not generally careful to judge me.
addition, there is an important issue Can multi-angle observation. look at a person, if it is a flat picture, you feel he is single, and only have a look around, in order to accurately judge the person's condition. So there is a third point, the Government budget information to us is flat. He only gives you traffic information, the number of income come, how much spending, but assets, liabilities, financial reporting, regardless of which pocket are not public. There are a lot of specific information, for example, you study a school to spend this money is not right, you need to know how many teachers in this school in the end, he was in the end the number of students in training, how much of his construction area, the volume of business each year is roughly the number of hh these basic statistics, previous in the budget process has a special report, it did not.
based on these three reasons, I said I can not be easily agreed. probably because I asked questions and answers are not clear or Shanghai can be solved I have not since 2007 when the Shanghai Municipal People's Congress and then they recommend me to do the CPPCC National Committee.
08 I was the first time the CPPCC National Committee. It has a very good program, called the General Assembly to speak, into written statements and oral statements. oral statements means that you can stand in the Great Hall of the podium on more than two thousand CPPCC members about your views. As the experience in Shanghai, has been brooding on the issue of transparency, I think we must seize this opportunity to appeal to the sun finances. I immediately wrote a General Assembly speech. According to the requirements of the meeting, the language should be vivid, to write with substance, but also for a more I look forward to have white hair. want to see their younger, which under no. But in 2008, they looked after the speech that you speak of this material as written, did not allow me to participate in oral statements .09, when, before the meeting, Preparatory Meeting of the General Assembly who gave me a telephone call, said JIANG Hong members, we carefully read your speech last year, feeling well written, we want to address the General Assembly as a candidate of this year's program. I know this is not easy did not hold out much hope, because my request and the reality is still relatively high compared to, and I use the wording is more intense (or relatively heavy criticism of the meaning). The General Assembly is to open in March, February 10 when I gave him the manuscript, and in which we added the public Policy Research Center Shanghaicaida research data .3 5 months, 6 March, I attended the meeting, has been no news, to March 7 was informed me that on March 9 as the last speaker in the General Assembly. Later, I am pleased that in this meeting, the Chinese provincial Shanghaicaida our assessment of fiscal transparency, the results of the report made at the meeting. The results you already know , and the overall situation of our country's financial transparency is very satisfactory. with our score, if it is a hundred points, then, the overall average is about 22 points a few. So we think that the Government to further improve fiscal transparency is very necessary. < br> Host: Chiang our voice to the members of the CPPCC National Committee of the hall. Lee Wai-kwong, a tax research specialist teacher, two years to give the manual a lot of support. now Li give us about your feelings.
Lee Wai-kwong: This manual impressed me the most is these three words: civil, tax power, manual. citizens of this word is no longer strange to us, we are using, but when it combines with a time when the tax will What happens to the tax changes? It is not clear to everyone. There is also tax the right, in our media, you say the tax we all know, but said the tax power as what the taxpayer should have the right to this right how many, how to reflect in their own lives, reflected in their action, which is very strange. manual means, I think it has the role of the guidelines, if you do not know I told you. I think it is a pass knowing the purpose of doing this research, the value in this place.
I feel they get better and better manual, online reprint many, social influence is growing. These people are young , but they are academic professors than we did even better. they are the first time, I can not think of a second this; out of the second book, I thought things could not get on this. But now is the third of this. Many people like to talk about democracy, but democracy is not really light and shouting slogans, but to do something. If our implementation of the rights of taxpayers, the government budget was truly transparent, China is a step by step progress to democracy.
This year, our country, the process of democratic rule of law has indeed been some progress. For example, Mr. Wu Junliang apply for an open budget, has made great achievements. Guangzhou municipal government has begun to open his budget Although there are some issues that need further improvement, but as a government, this is the first time, has been impossible to find elsewhere. In addition, discussions are often related to tax the Internet, people on tax resistance is relatively large. that some officials put it as a vision, to take action to block, some sensitive words are obscured. In fact, this is a long-suppressed sense of the right to tax the citizens wake up after the inevitable. Although we do not speak are so rational, objective, But the whole, I am optimistic about its positive effects, it makes the future when the government introduced tax policy must be cautious. citizens of a country awakened awareness of taxpayer rights, indicating the country in the democratic process has made substantial progress.
in history, some great social progress in the key point, turning point in the relationship between regular and tax revenue, the U.S. War of Independence, the British are like the Glorious Revolution. tax revenue should be our national constitutional process in this country a very important problems. pass the line to do the manual to know the future will be written in history, written in a heavy.
audience: My first question, ask the teacher Chiang, Mr. Wu said he expects some of the financial sector open to the public, may be used three to five years, which may now have realized, just now you said that your research results, transparency in government finances is now only ten p.m. sort of score. You conservative estimate, the central government six great need to achieve long? second question, I ask Li, how to evaluate the tax situation of the past year?
JIANG Hong: This is a good question. a lot of people ask me, You say you want financial transparency, To clear to what extent did you satisfied? I said to the Government that money spent should not be able to advance, was to stop off, remove to, which is my goal. transparency is not transparent and transparent, transparent is to allow the government Money well spent in the public interest. If you follow this goal, three to five years I think there is a little difficult. three to five years to achieve the degree of Guangzhou, is very good. Guangzhou City, whether the extent of financial disclosure which I envisaged objectives, in other words, should not spend the money can effectively stop living? now appears not yet. netizen said, public money to eat and drink, tourism public funds do not see how the money? public funds vehicles, image project, now in Guangzhou not see it report. So, I guess not so optimistic. As for the specific amount of time come to take that step? this issue I want to ask everyone in the community, how determined we are, whether we Target put in our action? If we dare not go, that road is long, foreseeable future, if we have determination, I believe it will faster.
Lee Wai-kwong: my experience, the Chinese tax issues in such a situation is , the academic behind the private sector, the Central behind places. engage in civic participation in local budget, but also in Fujian; in Guangdong, they engage in an open budget, although the extent of engaging in different, but they are doing, that local officials for various purposes, it is also people have posted recently, there are some things that he knows how to do it. Now the officials should also have received university education, his knowledge should be no shortage, and lack of courage or may be determined to resist the system. We should give them such a determination.
tax status, over the past year and not disappointing in the next. four trillion such a large investment decisions, do not see the NPC's voice, he is basically to sit and watch. do not discuss such a big thing, or there is no strict legal procedures, other things may even not worth to discuss. In addition, special large-scale celebrations this year is too much? many activities of a few hundred billion is spent , hundreds of billions, or hundreds of billions of scale, how many schools can be built? can reinforce the number of primary and secondary schools? encounter heavy snow collapsed the child crushed to death Buzhi Yu. You can also solve the many migrant workers and wage arrears the treatment of life? How many people can solve social security problems?
problem facing China is assigned, who should decide the choice of distribution and structure. the Government does not solve the border issues and civil rights, which is the market site, which is the right to tell the public the site, give us a big risk. recently confirmed that this worry is not virtual, large country back into things is happening. Although many people deny that this is the country back into, what happened is temporary, but it does happen again and again. Shanxi coal mine on a recent out of many of these issues, more than two thousand companies and into more than a hundred Finally, many private funds have been folded inside.
and taxes over growth. This year the economy is very dangerous to take such a macro-policy-intensive rescue Bureau. But the government's financial difficulties only four months, one to a decrease in April, May began to turn from the good. to August or September, fiscal revenue increased by 30% or more, has returned to growth in economic prosperity between the degree, but certainly behind the record can not go wrong. a change at one of the reasons a large non-tax income, which more than nine months must register growth of 30%. Such a data tell us that the revenue side, not just taxes, including lack of income-tax limit, the lack of constraints.
no matter how much economic crisis fiscal deficit is not the government can not lose, that loss is who? SMEs in our country the total number of enterprises is 90%, the vast majority are private enterprises. taxes come from? is squeezed out from the people hard. down economic growth, private enterprise management is not good, employment is also very problematic. In this case, taxation, financial income has to rise. This is not a good sign. So I want to pass this knowing what to do, Not only is that more and more essential, but more and more urgent. If we do not do a good job maintaining the right to tax the private sector, if not the government's financial constraints of expropriating the hand, then the days will not be easy .
audience: most of the people may be more concerned about their own interests. I would say is a perfect insurance policy, pay the majority of enterprises in the country, this part of the money and finally to the hands of the government. We are not able to the enterprise proposed, the money to the individual, the more money individuals can dominate the entire domestic demand can be expanded? This involves personal disposable income, please talk about the teacher Chiang.
JIANG Hong: public finance and personal property rights are such a relationship, him a lot and you have less here; you here much, him on the less, at least from a static view is. between the two always have an appropriate proportional relationship. If you give public less money, many will not be able to apply for public affairs. If he took too much deflated our pockets to go. a lot of family education, housing costs money, your own things Gubuguolai. < br> how to keep our own pocket money and put the money where the government has an appropriate ratio? this decision is not personal to carry out, and must rely on community-wide discussion. This means that we want to participate in public activities, but also mm means that the so-called political activities of political activities is something we decided activity. If people think we pay too much money, we should make some more pocket money, I want to ask, are you a person This idea, or most people in society have such thoughts. if only a few people have the idea, most people are holding another idea, you do not have words. If most people have this idea, we would With the talk of the party. We should, through political channels to resolve these problems, we need a more democratic procedures.
how the ratio determined? answer two, a joint decision by all of us to the other, by the government the final say, now the real differences here. Let us not say that tax is not much, Leaving aside the money in our pockets inside is less, our concern is how this matter is determined, is some people or a person having the final say, or we have the final say? This is the fundamental problem.
determine taxes were many, first of all to see, what do we need the government to do, we give him how much he has done enough. to determine the first premise of this problem is the money the government to take it spread out to let us see, let us count accounts, what do we need you to do and see if we give you enough money. If you've had enough, and there are redundant, we should raise taxes should be reduced, leaving more money in our pockets certain. If not enough, most people feel that way, then do the opposite adjustment. This How to determine the problem? on the need for financial transparency. in this regard have already said, we are still far way, obstacles in what areas? of course, there are conflicts of interest, the Government has this resistance, they do not want control of their own in the end How much, how to spend money to let everyone know. but the people really want to know.
from a legal perspective, involves the , and several sub-categories, all secrets in the national economy is confidential. once again ask what is the secret? issues identified by the State Secrecy Bureau is confidential. provides that where? in the plan, budget implementation and final accounts of state secrets; provincial and provincial-level and long-term revenue and expenditure account over ...
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